Oh, hush, you. That's not actually a *real* license plate, is it? They're not really going to let a government entity issue religious plates, are they? And "I believe" in what? Could you get Ivanova on your plate, should you choose?
I've been on a real Supreme Court book reading jag lately. "Christian nation" my foot.
aaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!! I hope I never see that on the back of someone's car when I'm visiting, because it may cause me to use foul and inappropriate language in front of my child. And do something rash to the owner of said vehicle.
And isn't it always the case -- "I can shove my views down your throat, but I don't think you should be allowed to share yours." The guy doesn't support an atheist plate. Or probably anything non-Baptist. Grrr! That makes me so mad! Maybe you could get one and get it to say "NOT".
Honestly, I don't have a problem with it - depending on where the money for the plate goes. Freedom of religion means just that. What is the difference between saying "I believe" and the "Atheist" plate that songdancer linked to below? Both are statements of a person's personal religious beliefs. Besides, think of the deviant possibilities for replacements for the SAMPL text...
according to NC rules, you could get this:
NIVANOVA NNOTHING RIEN or THE FSM IN PASTA or HA HA JSJOKING J/K or UGOHELL etc
I don't know if FL has something similar, but NC has a great plate simulator so that you can really picture what you are getting.
I think the difference is that the ATHEIST tag I mentioned was just a standard vanity tag, paid for by the registrant and confined to 8 ASCII characters on the generic background (and only one instance thereof, per state). The "I Believe" Christian plate they are proposing is the background design, offered by the DMV (i.e. the state), for use with the state-issued (generic) numbers.
It wouldn't bug me, to be honest, if there were _any_ other faith's plate design available, as well. I particularly agree with your caveat of "depending on where the money for the plate goes". When there's only the one, it comes across like an advertising campaign for Christianity sponsored by the state (and my tax dollars).
I missed the Christian bit. Do you see the word Christian, Christ, or even God on that plate? Again, if the extra money is getting diverted to a Christian organization, I'll join the protest...but I think that they're too smart for that. Otherwise, I think we should let Mulder get his plate .
People, the pranking possibilities are way too good on this one.
Ahhh,....you didn't see the link knobody sent...the Ivanova plate is just a spoof of the one really before the Florida legislature right now. That one is described in the article as: "The Florida Legislature is considering a specialty plate with a design that includes a Christian cross, a stained-glass window and the words "I Believe.""
Ok, now it makes sense. I thought the Ivanova image was the only spoofed bit. Yeah, that's a bit over the line. Drat, I really liked the FSM idea. As a Floridian, I need you to promise me that you'll send in a proposal for a FSM tag. The money can go to Evolution Education & Culinary Classes :).
Sure it is. License plates are issued by the state DMV. All those schools that had prayer before football games or over the loudspeaker? There were no "laws" in most of those cases either, but people who were of different religions sued (under anonymity, for fear of retribution, and rightfully so) and won. It's a state organization sanctioning a particular religion. There doesn't need to be a code on the books. If they got the right judge (and in Florida, this is very possible) I don't think they'd have a problem getting that plate axed.
"In God We Trust" is different, because it's on money, and it's not horribly offensive (Jews believe in G-d, Muslims believe in Allah, FSM, Ivanova, all the same, right? ;-). There's also already Supreme Court precedent that says that's not establishment. It's not a big fat stained glass window with a cross on it. The only defense the state has is that with x thousand signatures you can get whatever plate you want, so you FSM folks could gang up and get your own plate. I don't think that would fly (pun intended). The clause is there to prevent unchecked majority rule.
The clause is there to prevent the establishment of an official state religion. In Florida, the state religion is football, isn't it? All kidding aside, I don't think giving people a choice of license plates from among over 100 that expresses their personal preference is establishing an official religion.
If they get the right judge, they might have it struck down, then it would go to the Circuit Court which would likely reverse, then the USSC which would likely allow it, in my opinion. But what do I know about the law, anyway.
I think the fact that it's there at all could be construed as establishment. The real test would be if someone tried to get another plate and couldn't, or wanted to get something snarky on the plate and were stopped by "well-meaning" DMV employees. Step up, folks! Be a test case! (My Constitutional scholar is napping with baby. I'll ask when he wakes up. I don't count -- I'm just the spouse who's put up with the overpriced hoo-ha that is Penn Law, and I'll be making the flash cards for the NY Bar Exam. "A photographic memory will not help you in law school, Mr. Brooks!" And it won't allow me to sit for the exam, either. )
I don't even think this Supreme Court would grant cert. Scalia won't because there were no license plates when they wrote the Constitution, Thomas does whatever Scalia says, and Alito/Roberts/Kennedy are Catholic and won't care. That leaves 4. Hm. You're right. They'll get cert, but they'll overturn because it doesn't meet strict scrutiny (because of the 100 other plates argument). Drat.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 11:15 am (UTC)I've been on a real Supreme Court book reading jag lately. "Christian nation" my foot.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 12:08 pm (UTC)http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jpCRa_2onj6TwJ2DCIlU7OPlswnAD908EOA80
if this passes i may have to become political again. i want my athiest license plate!
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 12:23 pm (UTC)aaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!! I hope I never see that on the back of someone's car when I'm visiting, because it may cause me to use foul and inappropriate language in front of my child. And do something rash to the owner of said vehicle.
And isn't it always the case -- "I can shove my views down your throat, but I don't think you should be allowed to share yours." The guy doesn't support an atheist plate. Or probably anything non-Baptist. Grrr! That makes me so mad! Maybe you could get one and get it to say "NOT".
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 12:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 01:26 pm (UTC)Besides, think of the deviant possibilities for replacements for the SAMPL text...
according to NC rules, you could get this:
NIVANOVA
NNOTHING
RIEN
or
THE FSM
IN PASTA
or
HA HA
JSJOKING
J/K
or
UGOHELL
etc
I don't know if FL has something similar, but NC has a great plate simulator so that you can really picture what you are getting.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 01:36 pm (UTC)?
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 10:43 pm (UTC)It wouldn't bug me, to be honest, if there were _any_ other faith's plate design available, as well. I particularly agree with your caveat of "depending on where the money for the plate goes". When there's only the one, it comes across like an advertising campaign for Christianity sponsored by the state (and my tax dollars).
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 02:43 am (UTC)People, the pranking possibilities are way too good on this one.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 03:10 am (UTC)Hell, I'd be up for the Mulder plate, myself....
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 03:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 03:23 am (UTC)*grin*
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 05:43 am (UTC)arrrrrrr!
no subject
Date: 2008-04-25 04:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 01:22 am (UTC)This isn't that, in my own legal opinion.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 11:46 am (UTC)"In God We Trust" is different, because it's on money, and it's not horribly offensive (Jews believe in G-d, Muslims believe in Allah, FSM, Ivanova, all the same, right? ;-). There's also already Supreme Court precedent that says that's not establishment. It's not a big fat stained glass window with a cross on it. The only defense the state has is that with x thousand signatures you can get whatever plate you want, so you FSM folks could gang up and get your own plate. I don't think that would fly (pun intended). The clause is there to prevent unchecked majority rule.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:27 pm (UTC)If they get the right judge, they might have it struck down, then it would go to the Circuit Court which would likely reverse, then the USSC which would likely allow it, in my opinion. But what do I know about the law, anyway.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-26 12:57 pm (UTC)I don't even think this Supreme Court would grant cert. Scalia won't because there were no license plates when they wrote the Constitution, Thomas does whatever Scalia says, and Alito/Roberts/Kennedy are Catholic and won't care. That leaves 4. Hm. You're right. They'll get cert, but they'll overturn because it doesn't meet strict scrutiny (because of the 100 other plates argument). Drat.