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What we need to do is get America to get Israel to stop doing this shit, and it's over.
According to a radio news story I just heard, the World Health Organization is estimating that there will be 900,000 Lebanese people displaced by the end of the day due to Israel's dirty little war.
Israel is considering an invasion by massive ground forces, and refuses to stop until Hezbollah is completely disarmed.
I grew up learning about the history of the people of Israel (Am Yisrael) and the country of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), and I was led to believe that they were one and the same. But groups like Neturei Karta (Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism) seem to offer a different view -- that there should be no country of Israel until the Messiah shall establish it.
Perhaps Jews do deserve a country after the Holocaust. But I think Germany would have been a more appropriate choice than Palestine. And I think that Israel has lost any claim on the world's sympathy.
I don't have any solutions. I don't know what I want. But I think that GWB's advice to others would be a pretty good idea for the Israeli government and military: Stop doing that shit. And maybe we shouldn't have sold them all those weapons.
Israel is considering an invasion by massive ground forces, and refuses to stop until Hezbollah is completely disarmed.
I grew up learning about the history of the people of Israel (Am Yisrael) and the country of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), and I was led to believe that they were one and the same. But groups like Neturei Karta (Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism) seem to offer a different view -- that there should be no country of Israel until the Messiah shall establish it.
Perhaps Jews do deserve a country after the Holocaust. But I think Germany would have been a more appropriate choice than Palestine. And I think that Israel has lost any claim on the world's sympathy.
I don't have any solutions. I don't know what I want. But I think that GWB's advice to others would be a pretty good idea for the Israeli government and military: Stop doing that shit. And maybe we shouldn't have sold them all those weapons.
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I agree that they need to knock that shit off, but OTOH, what other option do they have when criminals keep lobbing rockets over their border and the country that they're being launched from can't or won't stop them?
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I worry that Israel won't stop until they get access to the Qaraoun reservoir, with a capacity of 220 million cubic meters of fresh water.
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Anyone quoting Dubya, even if it is something that could possibly be a reasonable statement, tends to lose some ground these days with a lot o' folk...
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I'm just going to post a response to one thing, because I can answer this bit:
Perhaps Jews do deserve a country after the Holocaust. But I think Germany would have been a more appropriate choice than Palestine.
The location chosen was because that is the land that supposedly was promised to the Jews by God. Unfortunately, it was also promised to the Muslims by Allah and contains a particularly holy Christian place as well :P But that's why the particular location was chosen. It's meant to be a Jewish homeland, so it was placed in what the Jews considered home. A large portion of the land of Israel, however, and I could be off on this, was spoils of war... wars that were instigated by Not-Israelis....
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(and you are not wrong, btw. The West Bank and the Golan Heights were seized by Israel after Egypt/Syria launched a surprise attack with the intention of wiping them off of the map. They won't be given back any time soon due to the strategic importance of the land in defending the rest of Israel. When you see any reference to the '1967 borders', that's what they are talking about.]
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Indeed, God is an iron.
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Yep. Just ignore them. Just 'boys being boys' after all, no harm done, right? All that 'push them into the sea' and 'total destruction' stuff is just overblown rhetoric, after all. Why, such feelings are unprecedented in this world's history! </G'kar>
Israel started no war. It's long past time to have it finished, though, and by rhetoric, history, and actions, the only way it's going to happen is for both Hamas and Hizbollah to be neutralized as fighting forces. [disarmed, scattered, or dead.] Then Lebanon can hopefully assert control over their own territory instead of an independant group owning that border. [Take wild guess what two nations will probably foot reconstruction costs in Lebanon. No, really, go ahead. Hint: "Syria" and "Iran" are wrong answers, despite their creation, arming & funding of H&H in the first place.]
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I think fighting the terrorist groups is probably Israel's best option if it wants to continue to exist as a nation. I just don't see why that has to involve blowing up gas stations, grain silos, roads, and so on. And I don't think it gives Israel a right to launch the "massive ground assault" that they've refused to rule out.
With a precedent like that, would the Arab nations not be justified in destroying grain silos and interstate highways in the United States because we fund and supply the people (the Israeli military) who are launching missiles into their countries?
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"their countries" That would be Lebanon, and sure, they have the option of declaring war and striking legitmate targets on Israel's allies. Amazingly stupid idea, but they'd have a "legitimate" ground to increase the scope of the fighting, destruction and dying.
Note that pretty much every Arab country is publically stating "this is Hezbollah's fault" [a serious flying pig moment!] and that, well, they hope Israel doesn't escalate things _too_ far.
The problem you're having here is looking at it as a factor of 'organized crime.' Hez/Hamas are proxy actors for Syria/Iran, and under the auspices of a state, have committed numerous _causus belli_. Israel is actually making a serious effort to not destroy _Lebanon_ itself, but that armed militia operating within its borders that Lebanon itself cannot control, and refuses to negotiate in good faith.
To take your 'precedent' in the correct direction, presuming the Militant Montana Men crossed the border and committed atrocites against Canada, AND the US was unable to stop them, THEN Canada would have a perfect right to respond. Interstate highways that were being used to supply the MMM, food and weapons under their control, etc, would be 'fair game' targets.
None of that, btw, obviates the fact that you're proposing a strawman argument.
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1. You misquoted King George (he wasn't talking about Israel, but the Hezbollah to knock it off).
2. Why does this upset you? Why do you think the Jews deserve Germany as opposed to Israel? It's not like they crossed the desert for good beer or anything.
Matzah is a sign that just because you're the chosen people doesn't mean that G-d likes you. ;-)
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Oh, that's funny as hell... I think I have a new sig quote :)
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I stopped getting upset about war in the middle-east a loooooong time ago. Israel isn't doing anything fundamentally different than they've done before. Scale may be different, that's all.
I'd much rather see America pull out of the middle-east all together, stop buying foreign fuel sources and focus on assuring long-term survival of our nation in the face of the fact that it will cease to be a number one world power sometime this century.